Bedwetting and Hygene: my daughter's recent problem

Johnny K · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

"dragonlady" wrote in message@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> In article ,
> "R. Steve Walz" wrote:
>
> > Johnny K wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sick Troll. Don't respond.
> > > > Steve
> > >
> > > I come back after a power outage to fine myself accused of being a
troll?
> > > Why? What did I do? Is it because I crossposted to
alt.parenting.solutions
> > --------------------------
> > No, it's because you are a liar and identified your daughter by name,
> > and also alleged a scenario that is obviously fraudulent. Children
> > of that age who have that trouble have devices to prevent wetting,
> > and don't sit about in it. And they don't have parents of your
> > immaturity. Go grow up.
>
> Not true.
>
> No device prevents wetting, some devices are supposed to help train a
> person to wake up, but they didn't work for my son. Nothing did, except
> waiting for him to outgrow it, which he did at 14.
>
> What's more, for a brief spell when he was about the same age as this
> supposed daughter, we DID have hygeine issues surrounding his Depends
> and showering. It isn't uncommon.
>
> What makes this a possible troll is that an almost identical posting has
> been seem from time to time, though in this case they guy has come back.

I've seen the Google Groups post mentioned on the, how to put this, mirror
of this thread over on misc.kids. It is a bit of a coincidence, but that
guy's daughter had different problems than my daughter. It's quite
superficial really. So what, now, is every single father with a daughter in
goodnites a troll?

I thank you, dragonlady, for taking the time to help me with my family's
problem. And I'll just ignore steve from now on.

Archived from group: alt>parenting>solutions

Johnny K · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

"Tori M" wrote in message@bright.net...
> I wet the bed almost nightly until mid 6th grade.. I believe I turned 12
or
> 13 that year. one morning I woke up and it was over.. wooohoo I was so
> happy. This could just be a summer lazyness so try not to ride her too
> much. It is bad enough that she is STILL wetting the bed. I am thinking
> like her mind you.

This has crossed my mind too. In fact, it's my major theory. I'm just
going to have to be a bit more stringent, I suppose, or loosen up a bit.
I've not made up my mind yet. Both have their advantages.

As for the wetting itself, I'm hoping she'll come out of it soon. Possibly
with puberty. It's just something that runs in the family. As I said
earlier, her mother was 16 when she finally stopped.

> One thing though is has anything else changed
> recently? It is the personality change i am looking at.

Well, let's see...she's starting Jr. High in a few weeks(they call it Middle
School, but it's really a Jr. High School), perhaps she's worried about
that. Otherwise, I can't really think of anything.

> She is a bit
> young for a real boy friend dont you think?

He's hardly a "real" boyfreind. More like a boy she hangs out with, and
kisses on occasion. I don't think she's too young, provided they have
adequate supervision. Hell, I was doing the same thing with neighborhood
girls when I was 8! It's all good, innocent fun.

Now, let's update everyone on what's recently been going on. Sorry for not
posting yesterday, I was pretty busy.

At the moment, I'm attempting a tougher stance. If it doesn't work, I'll
probably just resign myslef to eating breakfast with them in their night
things.

The evening of the 1st, I was a bit more, shall we say, rigorous about the
bedtime ritual. I made sure my daughters took time for things they had been
neglecting for a long time. For example, both of my daughters hadn't
bothered to go to the toilet before bed for quite a while. I made sure they
did that night. I also limited fluids after 8pm.(they both go to bed at
10). After reading the other fellow's problem, I considered not letting
them put their protection on until immidiately before bed, but I've never
noticed them peeing in them while awake, so I decided that didn't matter.

Well, I'm not sure how much it paid off. Both my girls still woke up wet,
and while my younger daughter cheerfully showered and dressed when I asked,
my elded daughter was quite moody about it. Still, they were both dressed
and clean for breakfast.

That evening, I did the same thing. And, astoundadly, my elder daughter
woke up dry! Perhaps these nightime rituals could end her bedwetting
completely! I have hope, though she is on occasion dry anyway. As there
was nothing to clean up, I went ahead and let her eat in her dry goodnites
and pyjamas. I let my younger daughter eat in her wet things. I was too
happy to be strict Razz

However, from now on, I'm going to be strict about
it. You can eat in your jamies if your "underwear" is dry. Otherwise, you
have to change first. Hopefully, this will work out, and not cause a
backlash. And hopefully, my elder daughter will be dry from now on.

L. · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 126

Johnny K wrote:

> The evening of the 1st, I was a bit more, shall we say, rigorous about the
> bedtime ritual. I made sure my daughters took time for things they had been
> neglecting for a long time. For example, both of my daughters hadn't
> bothered to go to the toilet before bed for quite a while. I made sure they
> did that night. I also limited fluids after 8pm.(they both go to bed at
> 10). After reading the other fellow's problem, I considered not letting
> them put their protection on until immidiately before bed, but I've never
> noticed them peeing in them while awake, so I decided that didn't matter.
>
> Well, I'm not sure how much it paid off. Both my girls still woke up wet,
> and while my younger daughter cheerfully showered and dressed when I asked,
> my elded daughter was quite moody about it.

She may be moody because you have to remind her. Be *very* clear to
your children about what the rules are: "You get up, change your
clothing (wet or dry) and then come for breakfast." If they do it, you
don't have to remind them. I think part of the problem is that you
have had NO routine and lacadaisical rules. So you have to remind them
of what they need to do instead of them taking responsibility on their
own. Another good way to set this up is to have them wake the same time
every day with an alarm clock. The alarm is the signal that they get
up, get clean and then come to breakfast. That way it's not *you*
ordering them to do what they shopuld be doing on their own. Kids take
great pride in independance - and you can approach it in that way.
You can reward them for doing it without you having to remind them.
Set short-term and long-term goals for them to attain. (Like weekly,
monthly, etc.) No liquid before bed and peeing before bed is a
no-brainer - you HAVE TO stack the deck in their favor!.

-L.

bizby40 · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1465

I know I'm coming into this conversation late, but I've been thinking
about it. First, it's clear that you have two problems, bedwetting
and discipline.

My daughter was 6 (almost 7) when she stopped wearing pull-ups. At
the time, she was soaking them every night. I never considered taking
her out of them because of that. But DH would try every few months.
He always offered little incentives. She'd be dry for a few nights,
and then she'd go back to wetting. Finally he offered her a video if
she could stay dry for two weeks. That did the trick and she's been
dry ever since.

Now, I know it's a different situation completely, but it did convince
me that even though the child has no conscious control, they may have
some subconscious control. It might be that if you could find the
proper incentive, she'd respond.

My sister's son was much older. We thought his nighttime wetting was
tied to his cerebral palsy, but maybe not. At any rate, the doctor
prescribed a pill that helped him. I don't know what it was called,
but she would give it daily. If he took the pill, he didn't wet. If
he didn't take it, he did. I never looked into it for my daughter,
but might have if she'd gotten much older before she stopped.

Now for the discipline problem. You need to stop thinking about
things like "fair" and "hypocritical." You have decided that it's not
acceptable for them to come downstairs in wet pull-ups (and I agree,
BTW), and you need to stick to that. If she comes down in wet
pull-ups, you tell her quietly but firmly to go change. If she says
no, you repeat, just as quietly. She doesn't get to eat, turn on the
TV, turn on the computer, or do anything at all until she changes.
She might whine, complain, or mouth off, but you hold firm, and stay
quiet. Do not argue with her, just prevent her from doing anything
until she's changed.

It might take a few days of this before she believes that you are
serious and just changes before she comes down. But if you give it up
as too difficult, then you make it more difficult for yourself the
next time you decide to draw the line on something.

I did read your update, and it sounds promising. Keep vigilant and
I'm sure things will get better.

Bizby

dragonlady · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 714

In article ,
"Johnny K" wrote:

> Thank you for not thinking I'm a troll Beth. I'm just going to ignore that
> steve guy. Though am I not supposed to mention real names here? I'd never
> noticed that rule before.

In general, many of us think it's a Bad Idea to mention our KID'S names.
You may note that we usually use DD or DS (dear daughter or dear son),
sometimes with a number indicating either birth order or age after it.

Particularly since you are dealing with a potentially embarrassing
situation, it's probably best not to "out" your kids by name.

It's not a rule, exactly -- more a convention.

As far as you being a potential troll -- we get oddballs here posting
stuff about diapers from time to time that turn weird. It makes it
harder for parents like you (and, formerly, me) who have this sort of
issue for real!

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Johnny K · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

"bizby40" wrote in message@adelphia.com...
>
> I know I'm coming into this conversation late, but I've been thinking
> about it. First, it's clear that you have two problems, bedwetting
> and discipline.
>
> My daughter was 6 (almost 7) when she stopped wearing pull-ups. At
> the time, she was soaking them every night. I never considered taking
> her out of them because of that. But DH would try every few months.
> He always offered little incentives. She'd be dry for a few nights,
> and then she'd go back to wetting. Finally he offered her a video if
> she could stay dry for two weeks. That did the trick and she's been
> dry ever since.

What works for one child may not work for another. In any case, I don't
think bribing my daughter with an incentive to stop doing something she
cannot control would be very productive. It would only discourage her when,
despite her best efforts, she failed. I'm glad it worked for you though Smile

> My sister's son was much older. We thought his nighttime wetting was
> tied to his cerebral palsy, but maybe not. At any rate, the doctor
> prescribed a pill that helped him. I don't know what it was called,
> but she would give it daily. If he took the pill, he didn't wet. If
> he didn't take it, he did. I never looked into it for my daughter,
> but might have if she'd gotten much older before she stopped.

I don't believe in using drugs unless absolutely necessary. Pullups and
lots of laundry are both better alternatives in my opinion.
>
> Now for the discipline problem. You need to stop thinking about
> things like "fair" and "hypocritical." You have decided that it's not
> acceptable for them to come downstairs in wet pull-ups (and I agree,
> BTW), and you need to stick to that. If she comes down in wet
> pull-ups, you tell her quietly but firmly to go change. If she says
> no, you repeat, just as quietly. She doesn't get to eat, turn on the
> TV, turn on the computer, or do anything at all until she changes.
> She might whine, complain, or mouth off, but you hold firm, and stay
> quiet. Do not argue with her, just prevent her from doing anything
> until she's changed.
>
> It might take a few days of this before she believes that you are
> serious and just changes before she comes down. But if you give it up
> as too difficult, then you make it more difficult for yourself the
> next time you decide to draw the line on something.

I've begun to get a bit tougher. It's paying off a bit. My elder daughter
had her first dry night all summer just this morning, and we're hoping for
another one tomorrow morning. I'm going to stick firm with no breakfast in
wet pullups and goodnites, but if they're dry, you can eat in them. If it
seems detrimental, I'll give up on it, but I think it'll go fine. Thanks
Smile

L. · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 126

Johnny K wrote:
>
> Alarm Clocks when you don't have to be anywhere?! I could never do that to
> my kids Razz

I hate those things too much during school to be a slave to one
> during vacation, or to force my kids to.

Alarm clocks so they get used to getting up in the morning and taking
care of their morning routine. You have to get their bladders on a
schedule.

>You're right though, more
> independance is in order. The thing is, she used to do this stuff on her
> own. It's just recently that she's been slacking off.

She needs a set of rules to follow if she's unable to do it herself.

>
> > You can reward them for doing it without you having to remind them.
> > Set short-term and long-term goals for them to attain. (Like weekly,
> > monthly, etc.) No liquid before bed and peeing before bed is a
> > no-brainer - you HAVE TO stack the deck in their favor!.
>
> I'm not sure what kind of goals you're referring to.

A couple of examples: Doing everything in the PM routine without being
asked. Getting up and taking care of hygiene in the AM without being
asked.

Do it every day for a week, you get X. Do it every day for a month,
you get Y. Do it every day for 6 months, you get Z. X

>
> I think I may have gotten better goals if we had kept up the going to the
> toilet before bed, and the limited drinks after a certain time, but we did
> that for years and years, and still had wet pullups all that time. It
> seemed pointless after a while, and we just kinda stopped worrying about it
> over time. I mean, I never sent my kids to bed clutching themselves in
> desperation, but, after a while, I never said "Go potty first" either. Now
> that I've taken it back up, my daughter's had a dry night. I hope it keeps
> up.

I do too. Really, I think kids do a lot better on a schedule and on a
routine. It may be more hassle initially, but in the long run, it
makes your life as a parent easier because you know what to expect,
when, and you all can prepare ahead. IMO getting up on schedule
year-round has benefits because once school starts there isn't this
huge adjustment in routine. If your kids are sleeping until 9 or 10
during the summer, it makes it mighty hard to start waking at 7 come
September 1st (or whenever school starts).

Good luck,
-L.

Johnny K · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

> She may be moody because you have to remind her. Be *very* clear to
> your children about what the rules are: "You get up, change your
> clothing (wet or dry) and then come for breakfast." If they do it, you
> don't have to remind them. I think part of the problem is that you
> have had NO routine and lacadaisical rules. So you have to remind them
> of what they need to do instead of them taking responsibility on their
> own. Another good way to set this up is to have them wake the same time
> every day with an alarm clock. The alarm is the signal that they get
> up, get clean and then come to breakfast. That way it's not *you*
> ordering them to do what they shopuld be doing on their own. Kids take
> great pride in independance - and you can approach it in that way.

Alarm Clocks when you don't have to be anywhere?! I could never do that to
my kids Razz

I hate those things too much during school to be a slave to one
during vacation, or to force my kids to. You're right though, more
independance is in order. The thing is, she used to do this stuff on her
own. It's just recently that she's been slacking off.

> You can reward them for doing it without you having to remind them.
> Set short-term and long-term goals for them to attain. (Like weekly,
> monthly, etc.) No liquid before bed and peeing before bed is a
> no-brainer - you HAVE TO stack the deck in their favor!.

I'm not sure what kind of goals you're referring to.

I think I may have gotten better goals if we had kept up the going to the
toilet before bed, and the limited drinks after a certain time, but we did
that for years and years, and still had wet pullups all that time. It
seemed pointless after a while, and we just kinda stopped worrying about it
over time. I mean, I never sent my kids to bed clutching themselves in
desperation, but, after a while, I never said "Go potty first" either. Now
that I've taken it back up, my daughter's had a dry night. I hope it keeps
up.

thingskidssay · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

The problem I see with the protective Goodnights is that while they
almost certainly help those folks who do have problems waking up, they
also potentially encourage all kids to stay in bed rather than going to
the restroom.

It's probably best to try to wean kids off of these (get a good
mattress protector!) and, if there's a problem, get a pediatrician's
assessment of whether there's a medical concern.

Tori M wrote:
> Honnestly as someone who wet the bed til I was pretty old I really WISH so
> much we had the protective things they have now. I dont think people who
> have not gone through that totaly understand. I was not just too lazy to
> get up I literaly would not wake up. My mom would sometimes get me up and
> take me potty and I dont remember a single time she did it. I know I would
> wake up dry but if my mom missed a day I wouldnt wake up dry.
>
> Let her grow out of it. Make a rule that pullups and other potty catching
> devices do not belong in the kitchen but dont take them away.. it will just
> make things worse.
>
> Tori
> "Beth Kevles" wrote in message
> $0$579$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
> >
> > Hi --
> >
> > I think you really do have to pick your battles. In my house, this
> > would DEFINITELY be a battle to pick!
> >
> > Given what you've described so far, I'd get rid of the pullups for the
> > older girl and have her sleep with nothing on bottom. So long as she
> > sleeps through the night that way, it's not a problem. You might try
> > that with your younger one as well, but for her, take her to the
> > bathroom last thing before YOU go to bed at night. (You might need to
> > take her once more, in the week hours.)
> >
> > Having experienced many of these problems in my own household, I believe
> > you're not a troll!
> >
> > Oh! One other thing! Sometimes bedwetting correlates to a food
> > intolerance. You might think about whether there's any food in your or
> > your daughters' diets that causes ANY problems at all. Or their
> > mother's diet, if you have that information. It's low probability, but
> > it certainly happens.
> >
> > --Beth Kevles
> > bethkevles@aol.com
> > http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
> > Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
> > advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
> >
> > NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
> > like me to reply.

bizby40 · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1465

"Johnny K" wrote in message @fidnet.com...
>
> "bizby40" wrote in message
> @adelphia.com...
>> My daughter was 6 (almost 7) when she stopped wearing pull-ups. At
>> the time, she was soaking them every night. I never considered
>> taking
>> her out of them because of that. But DH would try every few
>> months.
>> He always offered little incentives. She'd be dry for a few
>> nights,
>> and then she'd go back to wetting. Finally he offered her a video
>> if
>> she could stay dry for two weeks. That did the trick and she's
>> been
>> dry ever since.
>
> What works for one child may not work for another. In any case, I
> don't
> think bribing my daughter with an incentive to stop doing something
> she
> cannot control would be very productive. It would only discourage
> her when,
> despite her best efforts, she failed. I'm glad it worked for you
> though Smile

Of course it may not work. But it sounds like you've never tried it,
so perhaps it might. As for it discouraging her....well, I think that
all depends on the delivery. It sounds like you've done a great job
of letting her know that you don't think she's to blame for night-time
wetness, but now it's time to let her know that you think she can do
it, and that it would be a good thing if she did. Right now she has
pretty much no incentive at all to get or stay dry. If I hadn't
become convinced that our brains do have some control over whether we
wet even at night, I'd say that incentive was pointless. But I do
believe they have some control. You need to make night-time dryness a
desireable thing.

>> My sister's son was much older. We thought his nighttime wetting
>> was
>> tied to his cerebral palsy, but maybe not. At any rate, the doctor
>> prescribed a pill that helped him. I don't know what it was
>> called,
>> but she would give it daily. If he took the pill, he didn't wet.
>> If
>> he didn't take it, he did. I never looked into it for my daughter,
>> but might have if she'd gotten much older before she stopped.
>
> I don't believe in using drugs unless absolutely necessary. Pullups
> and
> lots of laundry are both better alternatives in my opinion.

I thought so too, but then my daughter was only 6. By 11, I might
start feeling differently. Even though she seems not to care, you do
have to wonder if she does. Being dry might make her feel grown-up
(something that is *very* important to my almost 11YO). And it would
make it easier for her to have sleepovers, or go on camping trips.
Perhaps you could talk to her about it and see if she would like to
try it.

> I've begun to get a bit tougher. It's paying off a bit. My elder
> daughter
> had her first dry night all summer just this morning, and we're
> hoping for
> another one tomorrow morning. I'm going to stick firm with no
> breakfast in
> wet pullups and goodnites, but if they're dry, you can eat in them.
> If it
> seems detrimental, I'll give up on it, but I think it'll go fine.
> Thanks
> Smile

Glad to hear it. It can be hard to be the tough parent, but it's
necessary sometimes.

Bizby

Tori M · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 266

In the
> OP's case, there IS a family history, so it makes way more sense to just
> be patient until the child's body starts producing that hormone in
> sufficient quantities.

Right and in my family we have at least 3 generations that wet the bed past
first grade so I am not going to sweat it if Bonnie does.. or even Xavier..
My DH was a lazy kid.. he just didnt want to get up.. he admits it fully.

Tori

dragonlady · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 714

In article ,
"thingskidssay" wrote:

> The problem I see with the protective Goodnights is that while they
> almost certainly help those folks who do have problems waking up, they
> also potentially encourage all kids to stay in bed rather than going to
> the restroom.
>
> It's probably best to try to wean kids off of these (get a good
> mattress protector!) and, if there's a problem, get a pediatrician's
> assessment of whether there's a medical concern.

Do you honestly think that a child over the age of 10 wouldn't prefer to
NOT use these things? Why "wean them off" using decent protection if
the alternative is wet sheets every morning?

Remember, this isn't about being able to wake up when your bladder is
full -- at least, not entirely. It is about the hormone that is
produced when you are older that stops the kidneys from producing so
much urine while you are alseep that you HAVE to get up in the middle of
the night to pee. In some kids, that hormone is there in enough
quantity so they can stay dry through the night by the time they are two
or three -- in others, like my son, not until they are 14. It isn't a
medical concern, and where there is a family history of it, it was my
experience that most doctors won't want to run extensive tests. In the
OP's case, there IS a family history, so it makes way more sense to just
be patient until the child's body starts producing that hormone in
sufficient quantities.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 714

In article ,
"L." wrote:

> If your kids are sleeping until 9 or 10
> during the summer, it makes it mighty hard to start waking at 7 come
> September 1st (or whenever school starts).

That was not my experience. My experience was that the late nights
during the summer were delightful, the sleeping in was wonderful, and
the readjustment to a "school" schedule took about a week at most.
(Actually, it took ME longer -- the kids adjusted within a couple of
days.)

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Chookie · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1444

In article ,
"L." wrote:

> She may be moody because you have to remind her. Be *very* clear to
> your children about what the rules are: "You get up, change your
> clothing (wet or dry) and then come for breakfast." If they do it, you
> don't have to remind them. I think part of the problem is that you
> have had NO routine and lacadaisical rules. So you have to remind them
> of what they need to do instead of them taking responsibility on their
> own.

We have DS1's morning and evening routines posted in his bedroom.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Johnny K · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

Time for an updfate I suppose. Sorry I wasn't on yesterday, been a bit
busy.

I've continued the "bedtime rituals" with both my daughters, but both have
been wet for the last 2 nights. I know at doesn't really matter, but at
least their pullups are less wet than they have been.

Both of my daughters changed and showered before breakfast yesterday and
today. I only had to nag a little.

I suppose the problem's pretty much solved now. I still welcome any and all
advice anyone has. If there are any more problems, or anymore dry nights,
I'll let everyone know. Thanks.