kane_pohaku@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> R. Steve Walz wrote:
> > kane_pohaku@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > R. Steve Walz wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > I'd sure win a lot of debates, at least in my own mind.
> > > > > > ------------------------
> > > > > > Don't be disingenuous. I don't lie.
> > >
> > > That does not mean you lie. It means if I used that method I'd be
> > > fooling myself. I even charge myself with having proof of my claims,
> > > without any outside pressure at all. I "know something' because I
> > > remember it, but memory is not perfect in anyone. I go and find the
> > > proof of my "memory."
> > ------------------------
> > None of which is important.
>
> On the contrary, the subject is yours, Steve, and you pursued it along
> with me.
>
> Why have these issues suddenly become unimportant?
---------------
Because your stratagem seems to be to drag them out.


> It's not deceptive to explore and issue in depth.
-----------------
That's NOT anything YOU'RE doing.


> > > Maybe I missed it, eh?
> > -------------------------
> > Virtually no evil-doer will own up to their intent to evil after
> > being caught and subject to imminent punishment, they will attempt
> > to agree with you in order to turn your wrath aside.
>
> This appears to me to be casting LaVonne as an evildoer that you would
> wish to punish. Am I wrong in my presumption of your meaning?
------------------------------
You're seemingly learning delayed.


> While the subject is worth, and in fact going back to the subject of
> this thread, you seem done, after apparently accusing LaVonne of venal
> lies, with the subject we were discussing, lying and it's use by evil
> people that must, according to you, be shot and I presume you mean
> killed.
---------------
Unless one is a bad shot, and then it would be frightened or maimed.


> > by the cognitive dissonance that they would
> > have to disrespect themselves and why they permitted their own abuse
> > if they did NOT believe that same belief system at that time, thus
> > they side with their abusers, ala the Strockholm Syndrome.
>
> Yes, I agree fully on the issue the rejection of using abuse would
> cause a dissonance for them. I am not fully convinced, however, that
> people are universally unable to handle cognitive dissonance.
--------------------
That isn't important, however, undeserved torture is torture however
ineffective.


> > These
> > people have lost all self-respect and the only way they feel they
> > can reacquire their integrity is to take their abuser's place and
> > protest too much on behalf of their former abuser by abusing new
> > victims for them.
>
> If they have been indoctrinated by others that were in their turn
> indoctrinated then who is responsible, if they know no better, for
> their "evil?" Who shall we "kill" for being evil if they are in fact
> innocent of knowing they are doing evil but in fact believe they are
> doing right...as they were taught "right?"
-----------------------------
No, that isn't what they are doing, you have missed the above point.

They will SAY that what they are doing is what they were taught, but
it is a lie, they DO know it is wrong and Evil, and they merely say
that to join their abusers in their own abuse so as to sanction their
own abuse and thereby regain a disfunctional form of false self-esteem.

They will finally quite readily admit they were wrong in the face of
the threat of great bodily harm, and they will do so so very rapidly
that it will make your head spin. Why? Because they knew it was wrong
all along and simply decided to pretend that it was some special
twisted version of right in order to gain what joining their abusers
could gain them.

And what, actually, does that gain them?: It gains them not feeling
so stupid for letting someone abuse them that way, primarily. The
self-hate involved in the acceptance of abuse is the greatest damage
of all that abuse produces. Next to that acquiescence to abuse gains
them the semblance of familial peace, socially prized and not as
embarrassing as having to explain to friends that you no longer speak
to your relatives because they abused you, and then wondering why your
friends avoid you and are reluctant to be around you or have their
children around you! It also gains them a way to discharge the bodily
self-hatred produced by abuse when they were children, but now, and
upon their own children by immature bullying and impatience born of
an imitation of the cockeyed personal importance that parenthood
always held as a mystique for them. They were always told, "when you're
grown up you can beat your kids like we beat you!", it was held out
or implied all along the way that a certain key right of passage into
adulthood was child abuse!!


> > These same people know how stupid that sounds, despite believing it,
> > so they will not bother to try to explain their belief system to
> > you, and they will cavil and lie when caught at it.
>
> On the contrary, they TAKE their "self-respect" from doing what they
> were taught to do by people they respected, rightly or wrongly (and of
> course to you and I, and LaVonne, it would be "wrongly.")
-------------------------------------------
Well, actually it's not "self-resepct", as I just explained.
It's just more neurosis.


> The ONLY way they can truely lose their self respect in the matter of
> abusive discipline of their children is to come to understand (I used
> teaching to do it) that the behavior is abuse on their part.
>
> If they do not know, then they, suprisingly, "do not know."
>
> A child that pulls the wings off a grasshopper has no idea the
> grasshopper is being subjected to the evil of unecessary pain. The
> child is not evil and should not be shot.
------------------------
The grasshopper is experiencing nothing.


> People that have been indoctrinated by the use of pain into believing
> that pain is a proper tool for teaching children are in fact as
> innocent as that child. Until, of course, we teach them better.
------------------------
Pain teaches only insult, it's first and rightful response after the
recoil reaction is always REVENGE!


> The
> instant they grasp ... as they in my classes ... the evil of their
> actions in its true effects on the child their old belief system begins
> to crumble and the next question is the one the body and fender man had
> for me as a challenge: "What would you say I can do then to stop my
> child's unwanted behavior?" (The question of course is an error in
> thinking, but to me it was the signal to me "Kane, you got him. He's
> yours to instruct from here on out.)
---------------------
The examples of parents who come here for "advice", when it turns out
that what they REALLY want is SUPPORT for their CHILD ABUSE is
MONSTROUSLY greaster than any infinitely tiny number who might
actually be at any kind of teachable momemt!!


> I suspect it would have ended any learning for him 0:-> as most
> profoundly for others in the class, and any potentional students in the
> future, as I was arrested and locked up for years or executed for MY
> DOING EVIL BY KILLING SOMEONE THAT WAS NOT FULLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR
> OWN INDOCTINATION.
------------------------------
Irrelevant. I'm promoting a change in society toward LEGAL punishment
of that kind, NOT private violence.

ENOUGH of your disingenuity!
You KNOW better than your posturing pretense!!!
Steve

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