How do you handle Parents that BEAT their kids?

Ivan Gowch · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

[newsgroups trimmed]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:28:16 +0100, Amos Keppler
wrote:

==>Barrnabas Collins wrote:
==>
==>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:12:52 +0100, Amos Keppler
==>> wrote:
==>>
==>>
==>>> The pope is dead.
==>>>
==>>> Amos Shadowwalker
==>>> http://midnight-fire.net/sw
==>>>
==>>
==>> Very much alive
==>>
==> He's a bloated corpse, a walking dead, a zoombie by far.

Don't know about the Pope being a zoombie,
but he's been morally and ethically dead for
decades, as well as utterly irrelevant to real
life.

--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

Archived from group: misc>kids

Amos Keppler · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

The pope is dead.

Amos Shadowwalker
http://midnight-fire.net/sw

toto · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2581

On 27 Feb 2005 10:59:05 -0800, "Kane"
wrote:

>This lady was out of control, obviously. Do you really think a gentle
>helpful intervention would have had any real effect out of public
>sight?
>
>I'd hope so, but the unchanging rates of child abuse suggest otherwise,
>statistically.

Punishing her won't work either.

Foster care is not a cureall since the foster care system often brings
problems of its own. The anecdotes from kids *in* the foster care
system who have been abused by foster parents or foster siblings
is pretty good evidence that these situations don't work well either.

Not knowing the situation the mom was in, I think a gentler
intervention might have helped much more than anything the
police did or anything a person who was confrontational did.

If you get inside the defenses of such a mom, you may find that
you can get her to seek some professional help as well.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Amos Keppler · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Barrnabas Collins wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:12:52 +0100, Amos Keppler
> wrote:
>
>
>> The pope is dead.
>>
>> Amos Shadowwalker
>> http://midnight-fire.net/sw
>>
>
> Very much alive
>
He's a bloated corpse, a walking dead, a zoombie by far.

Pastor Dave · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 57

On 27 Feb 2005 10:59:05 -0800, after pondering deep
thoughts, "Kane" spake
thusly:

>
>toto wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:04:22 -0800, John
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Once in SeaWorld of Florida I was walking and to my distance saw a
>> >mother going histerical at her little girl. She was screaming at
>her,
>> >spanking her, and jerking her violently. This poor little girl was
>> >getting beat in front of others, and nobody stopped or said
>anything.
>> >But after observing this horrible scene for a few minutes and seeing
>
>> >nobody stop I took action. So I walked within a few feet of the
>mother
>> >and stood there staring. The mother saw me and jerked her child
>away I
>> >guess to be beat somewhere else. So the child was taken near a
>> >bathroom, and spanked, and jerked around a bit. I was not sure what
>the
>> >child did wrong, but was shocked that nobody ever stopped or said
>> >anything to this mean mother.
>> >
>> >Did I handled the situation coreectly? I thought that I should have
>
>> >verbally confronted the mother instead of nonverbally.
>> >
>> In a situation like this, it may be the child who suffers when mom
>> gets her home, so I would not *confront* the mom either verbally
>> or non-verbally as a rule.
>>
>> I would suggest taking a gentler approach.
>>
>> You could say something like *You seem really angry and upset.
>> Is there anything I can do to help? Can I take your packages
>> to your car for you and walk with you?*
>>
>> This gives mom a chance to calm down. If she accepts you
>> can also talk to the child, letting her know you see her.
>> Again, say something calming not confrontational. Don't
>> blame the mom or the child for the situation. *You must have
>> been really angry. It looked like your mom was really upset
>> with you. I am sure you can work with her now.*
>>
>
>The problem, Toto, is a question of degree. This mother's attack, from
>our remote perspective of course, appears to be one that needed legal
>interventions.
>
>While I've said repeatedly in this particular ng, aps, that I do not
>support an anti spanking law, I am slowly but surely opening up to the
>possibility I may be wrong about the capacity of Americans for empathy,
>intelligence, and mental health. Some of the posters here make it
>abundantly apparent they are dedicated to the preservation of this
>savage practice of hurting children.
>
>We may have to have a law. And if it comes to pass I will blame the
>compusive stupid spanking public for it, not the anti spankers. We'd
>walk away from the issue of some parents weren't doing this act.
>
>The rate of injured children, the majority of which were, according to
>their parents were "only being disciplined," stays the same decade
>after decade. That would suggest that what we are doing now is not
>sufficient to reduce the problem.
>
>While I agee with you on your suggested intervention I feel it much
>more appropriate when a parent has lost it on a much less extreme scale
>than the example in the Sea World story.
>
>She needs an intervention that she will have to deal with at home. CPS
>needed to be called RIGHT after and LEO, right after having an on site
>security person intervene (sometimes they are deputized or otherwise
>authorized to make an arrest).
>
>This lady was out of control, obviously. Do you really think a gentle
>helpful intervention would have had any real effect out of public
>sight?
>
>I'd hope so, but the unchanging rates of child abuse suggest otherwise,
>statistically.
>
>Best, Kane

Sad, isn't it? Spanking is proper, as a last resort,
but these people take their frustration out on the
children and seem to think that the children should be
at their level of understanding.

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\

"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

toto · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2581

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:20:24 GMT, "TM" wrote:

>People have a right to privacy, they have a right to raise their children as
>they see fit. This is not an assault, it was a learning encounter.

You don't have a right to privacy in a public place when you are
physically hurting anyone including a child.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Doan · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1571

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, toto wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:20:24 GMT, "TM" wrote:
>
> >People have a right to privacy, they have a right to raise their children as
> >they see fit. This is not an assault, it was a learning encounter.
>
> You don't have a right to privacy in a public place when you are
> physically hurting anyone including a child.
>
Exactly! Just ask Ms. Toogood.

Doan

TM · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

Actually, you should have minded your own business. You have no idea what
transpired. You have no idea what the truth was. The parent was instructing
the child. Your descriptions are very telling...beat, jerked, etc.

You are biased against a parent exercising their rights as parents to teach
their children proper behavior.

People have a right to privacy, they have a right to raise their children as
they see fit. This is not an assault, it was a learning encounter.

If the woman slapped you across the face for sticking your nose in where it
did not belong wouldn't have been an assault either. It would have been
poetic justice to a busybody.

Amos Keppler · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Ivan Gowch wrote:

> [newsgroups trimmed]
>
> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:28:16 +0100, Amos Keppler
> wrote:
>
> ==>Barrnabas Collins wrote:
> ==>
> ==>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:12:52 +0100, Amos Keppler
> ==>> wrote:
> ==>>
> ==>>
> ==>>> The pope is dead.
> ==>>>
> ==>>> Amos Shadowwalker
> ==>>> http://midnight-fire.net/sw
> ==>>>
> ==>>
> ==>> Very much alive
> ==>>
> ==> He's a bloated corpse, a walking dead, a zoombie by far.
>
> Don't know about the Pope being a zoombie,
> but he's been morally and ethically dead for
> decades, as well as utterly irrelevant to real
> life.

But millions of people look upon him as god on Earth.
So, unfortunately he's very real to them.

Amos Shadowwalker
http://midnight-fire.net/sw

Pastor Dave · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 57

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:20:24 GMT, after pondering deep
thoughts, "TM" spake thusly:

>Actually, you should have minded your own business. You have no idea what
>transpired. You have no idea what the truth was. The parent was instructing
>the child. Your descriptions are very telling...beat, jerked, etc.

Has it occurred to you that maybe that is a fitting
description?

>You are biased against a parent exercising their rights as parents to teach
>their children proper behavior.

Teaching and abusing are two different things and since
you were not there, you have ZERO qualifications to
judge the situation.

>People have a right to privacy, they have a right to raise their children as
>they see fit. This is not an assault, it was a learning encounter.

If they want privacy, then they shouldn't do it in
public.

>If the woman slapped you across the face for sticking your nose in where it
>did not belong wouldn't have been an assault either. It would have been
>poetic justice to a busybody.

Or, assault by a person who just finished abusing their
child.

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\

"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

nimue · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 220

toto wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:04:22 -0800, John
> wrote:
>
>> Once in SeaWorld of Florida I was walking and to my distance saw a
>> mother going histerical at her little girl. She was screaming at
>> her, spanking her, and jerking her violently. This poor little girl
>> was getting beat in front of others, and nobody stopped or said
>> anything. But after observing this horrible scene for a few minutes
>> and seeing nobody stop I took action. So I walked within a few feet
>> of the mother and stood there staring. The mother saw me and jerked
>> her child away I guess to be beat somewhere else. So the child was
>> taken near a bathroom, and spanked, and jerked around a bit. I was
>> not sure what the child did wrong, but was shocked that nobody ever
>> stopped or said anything to this mean mother.
>>
>> Did I handled the situation coreectly? I thought that I should have
>> verbally confronted the mother instead of nonverbally.
>>
> In a situation like this, it may be the child who suffers when mom
> gets her home, so I would not *confront* the mom either verbally
> or non-verbally as a rule.
>
> I would suggest taking a gentler approach.
>
> You could say something like *You seem really angry and upset.
> Is there anything I can do to help? Can I take your packages
> to your car for you and walk with you?*
>
> This gives mom a chance to calm down. If she accepts you
> can also talk to the child, letting her know you see her.
> Again, say something calming not confrontational. Don't
> blame the mom or the child for the situation. *You must have
> been really angry. It looked like your mom was really upset
> with you. I am sure you can work with her now.*

This happened to me once in Macy's. A mom was really losing it, swatting at
her kids and yelling at them and I said to her, "Oh, wow -- it looks like
you are having the hardest day. Can I help you?" She turned to me and
launched into a long litany of complaints about how her kids were being and
I murmured sympathetically and said, "I know how it is. It's hard. Believe
me, I know, because I am a teacher." She ranted a little more and when I
sensed she was running out of steam I said, "Yeah, they can be a CHALLENGE.
They sure can. But you know what? I love my job. Sometimes they can be so
great. Oh, I can get mad and forget that -- hey! -- they are just kids.
They don't always know the right thing to do -- they haven't lived as long
as we have. And then, you know, I look at it a little differently, because
as trying as they can be, that is how wonderful they can be. God, those
kids just make my day sometimes." It went something like that -- it's
been a while. Basically, I let her vent and I validated everything she
said. Then I talked about how I felt the same way, but whenever I
remembered that kids are just kids, I could remember how wonderful they are,
too. I sort of modeled the thought process I wanted her to follow using
myself. BTW -- I NEVER lose it with kids like that, but whatever. I
pretended I did. Anyway, at the end of our conversation, she was hugging
and kissing her kids. This woman proably wasn't a hideously abusive mother;
she just didn't know any other way to think or behave and she was worn to a
frazzle. Ithelped -- in that situation. I think the woman needed a lot
more help, but I felt like I did make a bad situation better. Oh -- btw --
I teach high school, not elementary school, but she didn't know that.

--
nimue

"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

dragonlady · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2193

In article ,
Ivan Gowch wrote:

> ==>And abused children will be *more* at risk if you confront an abuser
> ==>in public and try to punish her.
>
> So, one should ignore an adult beating a child?

She didn't say to do nothing -- only that some actions, while perhaps
making YOU feel sanctimonious and noble, will actually put the child at
more risk for physical injury.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Nan · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1336

On 28 Feb 2005 15:54:18 -0800, "Kane"
scribbled:

>It was plainly a beating.

Actually, the OP used the word "beat" and "jerk" to describe what
happened. For all we know it was a very non-violent display.
Using these words are an attempt to inflame the issue, and are not
credible. YOU cannot say it was plainly a beating...YOU did not
witness it.

Nan

Ivan Gowch · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:08:46 GMT, Nan wrote:

[snip]

==>>==>And abused children will be *more* at risk if you confront an abuser
==>>==>in public and try to punish her.

IG:
==>> So, one should ignore an adult beating a child?

==>There is a tremendous difference between a "beating" and a "spanking".

Your use of a cutesy euphemism to try to minimize
the trauma caused a child is noted. A child who is
being repeatedly struck by an adult is being beaten.

==>Hyperbole to try and make your case threatens your credibility.

Obfuscation to try to defend a practice that is
clearly indefensible threatens more than your
credibility -- it marks you as pathetically
dishonest and dangerously hostile to children.

[snip]

==>Again, spanking does not equal beating.

Again, yes it does.

==>There is a very *real* danger
==>in escalation if you are confrontational in this situation.

Any confrontation carries a risk. But doing
nothing in this circumstance is the worst of
all options.

==> If you're
==>so concerned for the child, you should be aware that your confronting
==>the parent could make it worse.

You are apparently saying that being "confronted"
will prompt the abusive parent to become even
more abusive. If so, that's all the more reason to
bring in the authorities ASAP and get child-protection
officials involved. That child is obviously in great
danger.

==>Dorothy gave some great advice about ways to intervene for the child
==>without causing escalation.

No, she didn't. She offered a tepid suggestion that
would do absolutely nothing to bring the current
abuse to a halt, nor to protect the child from
future trauma.

People who assault children should know that much
of society does not approve, and will take action
to prevent such behaviour.

It should also be remembered that any parent who
would whale on a child *in public* can be counted
on to do far, far worse when out of other people's
sight.

[snip]

==>You're clearly not understanding. Nobody has said to ignore the
==>situation.

No . . . someone suggested asking the abusive
mother whether she "needs help." (Mother:
"yes, please hold her hands while I beat her
some more.")

I asked whether the same advice would be given
if the assaulter was a man beating his wife.

I got no response to that question. Wonder why?

IG:
==>> "Such situations" -- an adult beating a child -- are
==>> best handled either by resolute personal intervention,
==>> or by calling the police and bringing the abuser to
==>> the attention of the authorities.

==>Actually you create additional harm to the child this way.

Only in cloud cuckoo land can an action that
stops someone from beating a child be regarded
as creating "additional harm to the child."

What a cowardly, self-serving and dishonorable excuse.

==> Having a
==>child yanked out of their home and stuck in foster care (where abuse
==>happens as well) isn't good, either.

Alerting child-protection authorities that a child
is bieng abused does not necessarily mean that
the child will be removed from her home -- that's
an option that's exercised only in situations where
the child is deemed to be at continuing risk.

More dishonesty on your part, I'm afraid.

==> It's not all black and white,
==>here. The family needs more help than your screaming at them or
==>calling the cops can provide.

True enough, but unfortunately, when one
witnesses a child being assaulted, one's
possible responses are somewhat limited.

I agree that perhaps a more useful tactic would
be to compel the assaulter to attend parenting
classes. If you can offer a means to accomplish
that, you will have done a real service here today.

Sadly, however, all you seem to be able to offer is
child-abuser propaganda ("spanking is not beating,
blah, blah blah") and worthless fear-mongering about
making things worse.

When seeing a child being deliberately hurt, the worst
thing one can do is nothing.

Doan · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1571

Still can't answer my question about the *PROOF*?
Anti-spanking zealotS and logic, are they mutually exclusive? Wink

Doan

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Ivan Gowch wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:08:46 GMT, Nan wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> ==>>==>And abused children will be *more* at risk if you confront an abuser
> ==>>==>in public and try to punish her.
>
> IG:
> ==>> So, one should ignore an adult beating a child?
>
> ==>There is a tremendous difference between a "beating" and a "spanking".
>
> Your use of a cutesy euphemism to try to minimize
> the trauma caused a child is noted. A child who is
> being repeatedly struck by an adult is being beaten.
>
> ==>Hyperbole to try and make your case threatens your credibility.
>
> Obfuscation to try to defend a practice that is
> clearly indefensible threatens more than your
> credibility -- it marks you as pathetically
> dishonest and dangerously hostile to children.
>
> [snip]
>
> ==>Again, spanking does not equal beating.
>
> Again, yes it does.
>
> ==>There is a very *real* danger
> ==>in escalation if you are confrontational in this situation.
>
> Any confrontation carries a risk. But doing
> nothing in this circumstance is the worst of
> all options.
>
> ==> If you're
> ==>so concerned for the child, you should be aware that your confronting
> ==>the parent could make it worse.
>
> You are apparently saying that being "confronted"
> will prompt the abusive parent to become even
> more abusive. If so, that's all the more reason to
> bring in the authorities ASAP and get child-protection
> officials involved. That child is obviously in great
> danger.
>
> ==>Dorothy gave some great advice about ways to intervene for the child
> ==>without causing escalation.
>
> No, she didn't. She offered a tepid suggestion that
> would do absolutely nothing to bring the current
> abuse to a halt, nor to protect the child from
> future trauma.
>
> People who assault children should know that much
> of society does not approve, and will take action
> to prevent such behaviour.
>
> It should also be remembered that any parent who
> would whale on a child *in public* can be counted
> on to do far, far worse when out of other people's
> sight.
>
> [snip]
>
> ==>You're clearly not understanding. Nobody has said to ignore the
> ==>situation.
>
> No . . . someone suggested asking the abusive
> mother whether she "needs help." (Mother:
> "yes, please hold her hands while I beat her
> some more.")
>
> I asked whether the same advice would be given
> if the assaulter was a man beating his wife.
>
> I got no response to that question. Wonder why?
>
> IG:
> ==>> "Such situations" -- an adult beating a child -- are
> ==>> best handled either by resolute personal intervention,
> ==>> or by calling the police and bringing the abuser to
> ==>> the attention of the authorities.
>
> ==>Actually you create additional harm to the child this way.
>
> Only in cloud cuckoo land can an action that
> stops someone from beating a child be regarded
> as creating "additional harm to the child."
>
> What a cowardly, self-serving and dishonorable excuse.
>
> ==> Having a
> ==>child yanked out of their home and stuck in foster care (where abuse
> ==>happens as well) isn't good, either.
>
> Alerting child-protection authorities that a child
> is bieng abused does not necessarily mean that
> the child will be removed from her home -- that's
> an option that's exercised only in situations where
> the child is deemed to be at continuing risk.
>
> More dishonesty on your part, I'm afraid.
>
> ==> It's not all black and white,
> ==>here. The family needs more help than your screaming at them or
> ==>calling the cops can provide.
>
> True enough, but unfortunately, when one
> witnesses a child being assaulted, one's
> possible responses are somewhat limited.
>
> I agree that perhaps a more useful tactic would
> be to compel the assaulter to attend parenting
> classes. If you can offer a means to accomplish
> that, you will have done a real service here today.
>
> Sadly, however, all you seem to be able to offer is
> child-abuser propaganda ("spanking is not beating,
> blah, blah blah") and worthless fear-mongering about
> making things worse.
>
> When seeing a child being deliberately hurt, the worst
> thing one can do is nothing.
>
>
>