Spanking your children

johnw_94020 · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 98

Is it biblical to Spank?

For this message we will be focusing on a few well-known passages that
are quoted by those in favor of spanking their children. We will also
be addressing the anti spanking argument.

But first we need to define the difference between a Christian
fundamentalist and a liberal and how they interpret the spanking
argument and more importantly the book of Proverbs, which is the
foundation for the spanking argument.

Religious Conservatives- They generally believe that the book of
proverbs was assembled by King Solomon around 1000BCE. They believe
that the passages that deal with spanking does reflect his parenting
beliefs with respect to his son, Rehoboam. They interpret the passages
literally.

Religious Liberals- They generally believe that Solomon first
introduced "ancient wisdom" to Israel and it later came a practice to
attribute all his books to his literary genre he uses in this and other
books. Thus, Proverbs in its current form cannot date from earlier than
his reign in the 8ith century BCE. It may have been assembled as late
as the 4th century BCE. So to sum it off these type do not believe that
the book of Proverbs is the Word of God.

I will start by addressing the anti Spanking argument, and after will
address the pro spanking argument.

Anti Spanking Argument

Often the anti spankers view the rod often mention in the book of
Proverbs (some 9 times) and in the entire Bible (some 61 times) as a
figure of speech.

The two Hebrew words used in the book of proverbs (at least according
to the New American Standard Bible translation) are the words choter
and shebet.

The Hebrew word Shebet is from an unused word, which can be translated
into English as rod, staff, club, scepter; or tribe.

The verses that this Hebrew word are used are (according to the NASB)

Pro 10:13
Pro 13:24
Pro 22:8
Pro 22:15
Pro 23:13
Pro 23:14
Pro 26:3
Pro 29:15

The Hebrew word choter is also translated from an unused word that can
be translated in the English as branch or twig.

The one verse that uses this Hebrew word is

Pro 14:3

Looking at this verse in its CONTEXT it would appear that this verse
does advocate corporal punishment, but in its tendering does not
address children. The other 8 occurrences in Proverbs using the Hebrew
word shebet address children specifically in 5 of the 8 verses.

Know looking at the original Hebrew it's very hard to imagine how
anyone can come to a conclusion that the Bible does not condone the
literal spanking of children. I believe opponents of spanking come to
this conclusion because they do not view the Bible as THE AUTHORITY for
their lives.

I looked at my Dictionary of Biblical Imagery by Leland Ryken and found
out some useful info into the meaning of the word Rod.

Ryken provides a good picture of two different types of Rods typically
used in the biblical times. I wish I could digitally scan them and post
them here, but I believe I would be in violation of Rykens copyrights.
However looking carefully at the images it would appear from initial
impression that a spanking from either of the rods used in the biblical
times would be very painful, and often more painful than the type of
spanking that is practiced today.

Ryken goes into a bit of depth about the usage of Rod throughout the
Bible, but this is what he says about the usage of the word in the book
of Proverbs.

Rods were also used to punish wayward *children, *slaves, fools or
misbehaving adults.
The RSV uses the image for discipline administered by human authorities
approximately a

dozen times;with nine of the references coming in the book of
proverbs..(734).

So here we have a well-known Bible scholar Leland Ryken saying that
proverbs speaks of a literal interpretation of the usage of Rods on
children. Critics of the Bible will always be there, but quite honestly
one has to wonder if any of these critics have actually studied the
Bible in depth, and responded to it using a proper and biblical
Hermeneutic.

Opponents of biblical spanking often link spanked children to criminal,
anti-social, aggressive behavior problems that they might have later in
life. While they may have a point, the fact is that there is a huge
distinction between biblical spanking, and abusive spanking. Also they
cannot connect the spanking experiences to the later problems in adult
life. Just because someone has been spanked properly, does not
necessarily mean that the child will grow up as the Lord would want him
or her. Sometimes peer pressure, and other worldly influences are so
strong that the child cannot resist and feeds into them. Or perhaps the
child lacks the Holy Spirit and does not intend to live for God in his
or her life. Just because a child was raised in a Christian home, does
not mean they are saved.

One anti spanking website argues that spanking can cause serious
physical damage.

But they fail to differentiate between those that abuse children, and
those that spank with love. The Bible says

Proverbs 22:6 (NKJV) 6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

So the verse implies above that spanking a child should not be the only
response to a child's misbehaving, and should not be something that a
child should experience on a regular daily basis. Obviously this would
be common sense if one were to imply the training up a child in the way
he should go into practice.

Once I knew a gal named Stephanie. She was very beautiful, but had all
kinds of psychological problems. She was twenty years old at the time I
knew her, but had a very abusive mother. Once I remember attending
Calvary Chapel with her, and after the service walked into a bookstore.
I was browsing some books, while Stephanie was chatting with her
mother. Stephanie said something or asked her mother something (don't
remember any details) which got her mother upset and angry. As a result
her mother took Stephanie aside and gave her a spanking. Her mother
made the spanking of her twenty-year-old daughter a public scene. But
sadly none there, including myself said a word to her mother. Stephanie
was in tears, and obviously left the bookstore. I ran into her a little
later after I had browsed or purchased what I had to buy. I did not
mention this to her at the time, but sometime later while we were
together in my car (driving to the Newsboys concert), she got into some
detail with me about her family abuse. Since I was responsible for
driving Stephanie home that day, Stephanie told me that she would be
spanked if she was not on time and very much pleased with me to leave
the Newsboys concert earlier than the others in the church college
group.

So the anti spanking argument does have some merit, but its problem is
that it overlooks all the spanked children that have grown up to be
successful people in the world.

Pro Spanking Argument

The religious conservatives often firmly believe that the Bible is the
Word of God and all scriptures are God inspired.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV) 16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV) 20knowing this first, that no prophecy of
Scripture is of any private _ interpretation,21for prophecy never came
by the will of man, but _ holy men of God spoke as they were moved by
the Holy Spirit.

I am personally a Christian fundamentalist and often interpret
scripture literally. I do so because I believe the Bible is the Word of
God, and not from men. This hermeneutic philosophy has often gotten me
into trouble with liberals and those that do not view the Bible as the
authority nor take it seriously. But the Bible says this about these
types.

2Cor. 4:4 (NIV) The god of this age has blinded the minds of
unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the
glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Timothy 3:7 (NKJV) 7always learning and never able to come to the
knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 14:38 (NKJV) 38But _ if anyone is ignorant, let him be
ignorant.

Below are some of these verses used to aid the pro spanking argument.

Proverbs 13:24 (NKJV) 24 He who spares his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
Proverbs 19:18 (NKJV) 18 Chasten your son while there is hope,
And do not set your heart _ on his destruction.
Proverbs 22:15 (NKJV) 15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a
child;
The rod of correction will drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13 (NKJV) 13 Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
Proverbs 23:14 (NKJV) 14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from _ hell.
Proverbs 29:15 (NKJV) 15 The rod and rebuke give wisdom,
But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

Conservative Christians often equate the words Punishment and
Discipline as Corporal Punishment. They also often equate the word Rod
with the contemporary practice of spanking, or whipping.

I remember when I was a child I was properly spanked or whipped. Sadly
many kids today are not being treated with such love and this shows in
our society. Our kids of today do not care about authority, and are so
disobedient to their parents. Parents that do wish to spank their
children are facing an uphill battle against the ACLU and society in
general. For example spanking sticks and whips seem to be hard to find
these days.

Many schools no longer spank, and those that do are often chastised. I
know that in California (my home state) spanking in the schools has
been outlawed. In Oregon spanking is not only outlawed in the schools,
but has been outlawed in the home as well! And consequently the
children that are not spanked are often more disobedient to their
parents and authority in general.

Some websites and other resources to aid the pro spanking argument.

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/
http://home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/spank.htm
http://206.135.15.32/answers/aspankin.html

I hope this mini Bible message has been helpful. Please do send us your
critiques, or ways in which we could have written this message better.

May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the
fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John
© Church Education Resource Ministries

Permissions: You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and
distribute this material in any format provided that you do not alter
the wording in anyway other than to correct minor spelling and grammar
errors. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is
preferred. And exceptions to the above must be explicitly approved by
Church Education Resource Ministries.

Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John
Wolf © Church Education Resource Ministries. Website www.cerm.info.
Email: johnw@cerm.info.

Archived from group: alt>parenting>solutions

Grahame · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 44

Spare the Rod, spoil the child..even though its biblical, its not always
translated correctly.
The context of that text as well of an understanding of the writer shows the
"Rod" was used to guide sheep at that time, it wasnt used to HIT them., A
shephard cared lovingly for his sheep, even carrying them in his bossom at
times. The rod was to guide their way. So as a christian myself, I try to
guide my sheep (children) lovingly as a shephard did his sheep.
Thats my 2 cents worth anyway..
Smile

)
Fiona
wrote in message @y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Is it biblical to Spank?

For this message we will be focusing on a few well-known passages that
are quoted by those in favor of spanking their children. We will also
be addressing the anti spanking argument.

But first we need to define the difference between a Christian
fundamentalist and a liberal and how they interpret the spanking
argument and more importantly the book of Proverbs, which is the
foundation for the spanking argument.

Religious Conservatives- They generally believe that the book of
proverbs was assembled by King Solomon around 1000BCE. They believe
that the passages that deal with spanking does reflect his parenting
beliefs with respect to his son, Rehoboam. They interpret the passages
literally.

Religious Liberals- They generally believe that Solomon first
introduced "ancient wisdom" to Israel and it later came a practice to
attribute all his books to his literary genre he uses in this and other
books. Thus, Proverbs in its current form cannot date from earlier than
his reign in the 8ith century BCE. It may have been assembled as late
as the 4th century BCE. So to sum it off these type do not believe that
the book of Proverbs is the Word of God.

I will start by addressing the anti Spanking argument, and after will
address the pro spanking argument.

Anti Spanking Argument

Often the anti spankers view the rod often mention in the book of
Proverbs (some 9 times) and in the entire Bible (some 61 times) as a
figure of speech.

The two Hebrew words used in the book of proverbs (at least according
to the New American Standard Bible translation) are the words choter
and shebet.

The Hebrew word Shebet is from an unused word, which can be translated
into English as rod, staff, club, scepter; or tribe.

The verses that this Hebrew word are used are (according to the NASB)

Pro 10:13
Pro 13:24
Pro 22:8
Pro 22:15
Pro 23:13
Pro 23:14
Pro 26:3
Pro 29:15

The Hebrew word choter is also translated from an unused word that can
be translated in the English as branch or twig.

The one verse that uses this Hebrew word is

Pro 14:3

Looking at this verse in its CONTEXT it would appear that this verse
does advocate corporal punishment, but in its tendering does not
address children. The other 8 occurrences in Proverbs using the Hebrew
word shebet address children specifically in 5 of the 8 verses.

Know looking at the original Hebrew it's very hard to imagine how
anyone can come to a conclusion that the Bible does not condone the
literal spanking of children. I believe opponents of spanking come to
this conclusion because they do not view the Bible as THE AUTHORITY for
their lives.

I looked at my Dictionary of Biblical Imagery by Leland Ryken and found
out some useful info into the meaning of the word Rod.

Ryken provides a good picture of two different types of Rods typically
used in the biblical times. I wish I could digitally scan them and post
them here, but I believe I would be in violation of Rykens copyrights.
However looking carefully at the images it would appear from initial
impression that a spanking from either of the rods used in the biblical
times would be very painful, and often more painful than the type of
spanking that is practiced today.

Ryken goes into a bit of depth about the usage of Rod throughout the
Bible, but this is what he says about the usage of the word in the book
of Proverbs.

Rods were also used to punish wayward *children, *slaves, fools or
misbehaving adults.
The RSV uses the image for discipline administered by human authorities
approximately a

dozen times;with nine of the references coming in the book of
proverbs..(734).

So here we have a well-known Bible scholar Leland Ryken saying that
proverbs speaks of a literal interpretation of the usage of Rods on
children. Critics of the Bible will always be there, but quite honestly
one has to wonder if any of these critics have actually studied the
Bible in depth, and responded to it using a proper and biblical
Hermeneutic.

Opponents of biblical spanking often link spanked children to criminal,
anti-social, aggressive behavior problems that they might have later in
life. While they may have a point, the fact is that there is a huge
distinction between biblical spanking, and abusive spanking. Also they
cannot connect the spanking experiences to the later problems in adult
life. Just because someone has been spanked properly, does not
necessarily mean that the child will grow up as the Lord would want him
or her. Sometimes peer pressure, and other worldly influences are so
strong that the child cannot resist and feeds into them. Or perhaps the
child lacks the Holy Spirit and does not intend to live for God in his
or her life. Just because a child was raised in a Christian home, does
not mean they are saved.

One anti spanking website argues that spanking can cause serious
physical damage.

But they fail to differentiate between those that abuse children, and
those that spank with love. The Bible says

Proverbs 22:6 (NKJV) 6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

So the verse implies above that spanking a child should not be the only
response to a child's misbehaving, and should not be something that a
child should experience on a regular daily basis. Obviously this would
be common sense if one were to imply the training up a child in the way
he should go into practice.

Once I knew a gal named Stephanie. She was very beautiful, but had all
kinds of psychological problems. She was twenty years old at the time I
knew her, but had a very abusive mother. Once I remember attending
Calvary Chapel with her, and after the service walked into a bookstore.
I was browsing some books, while Stephanie was chatting with her
mother. Stephanie said something or asked her mother something (don't
remember any details) which got her mother upset and angry. As a result
her mother took Stephanie aside and gave her a spanking. Her mother
made the spanking of her twenty-year-old daughter a public scene. But
sadly none there, including myself said a word to her mother. Stephanie
was in tears, and obviously left the bookstore. I ran into her a little
later after I had browsed or purchased what I had to buy. I did not
mention this to her at the time, but sometime later while we were
together in my car (driving to the Newsboys concert), she got into some
detail with me about her family abuse. Since I was responsible for
driving Stephanie home that day, Stephanie told me that she would be
spanked if she was not on time and very much pleased with me to leave
the Newsboys concert earlier than the others in the church college
group.

So the anti spanking argument does have some merit, but its problem is
that it overlooks all the spanked children that have grown up to be
successful people in the world.

Pro Spanking Argument

The religious conservatives often firmly believe that the Bible is the
Word of God and all scriptures are God inspired.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV) 16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV) 20knowing this first, that no prophecy of
Scripture is of any private _ interpretation,21for prophecy never came
by the will of man, but _ holy men of God spoke as they were moved by
the Holy Spirit.

I am personally a Christian fundamentalist and often interpret
scripture literally. I do so because I believe the Bible is the Word of
God, and not from men. This hermeneutic philosophy has often gotten me
into trouble with liberals and those that do not view the Bible as the
authority nor take it seriously. But the Bible says this about these
types.

2Cor. 4:4 (NIV) The god of this age has blinded the minds of
unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the
glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Timothy 3:7 (NKJV) 7always learning and never able to come to the
knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 14:38 (NKJV) 38But _ if anyone is ignorant, let him be
ignorant.

Below are some of these verses used to aid the pro spanking argument.

Proverbs 13:24 (NKJV) 24 He who spares his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
Proverbs 19:18 (NKJV) 18 Chasten your son while there is hope,
And do not set your heart _ on his destruction.
Proverbs 22:15 (NKJV) 15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a
child;
The rod of correction will drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13 (NKJV) 13 Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
Proverbs 23:14 (NKJV) 14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from _ hell.
Proverbs 29:15 (NKJV) 15 The rod and rebuke give wisdom,
But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

Conservative Christians often equate the words Punishment and
Discipline as Corporal Punishment. They also often equate the word Rod
with the contemporary practice of spanking, or whipping.

I remember when I was a child I was properly spanked or whipped. Sadly
many kids today are not being treated with such love and this shows in
our society. Our kids of today do not care about authority, and are so
disobedient to their parents. Parents that do wish to spank their
children are facing an uphill battle against the ACLU and society in
general. For example spanking sticks and whips seem to be hard to find
these days.

Many schools no longer spank, and those that do are often chastised. I
know that in California (my home state) spanking in the schools has
been outlawed. In Oregon spanking is not only outlawed in the schools,
but has been outlawed in the home as well! And consequently the
children that are not spanked are often more disobedient to their
parents and authority in general.

Some websites and other resources to aid the pro spanking argument.

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/
http://home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/spank.htm
http://206.135.15.32/answers/aspankin.html

I hope this mini Bible message has been helpful. Please do send us your
critiques, or ways in which we could have written this message better.

May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the
fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John
© Church Education Resource Ministries

Permissions: You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and
distribute this material in any format provided that you do not alter
the wording in anyway other than to correct minor spelling and grammar
errors. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is
preferred. And exceptions to the above must be explicitly approved by
Church Education Resource Ministries.

Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John
Wolf © Church Education Resource Ministries. Website www.cerm.info.
Email: johnw@cerm.info.

R. Steve Walz · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1906

johnw_94020@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Is it biblical to Spank?
>
> For this message we will be focusing on a few well-known passages that
> are quoted by those in favor of spanking their children. We will also
> be addressing the anti spanking argument.
>
> But first we need to define the difference between a Christian
> fundamentalist and a liberal and how they interpret the spanking
> argument and more importantly the book of Proverbs, which is the
> foundation for the spanking argument.
>
> Religious Conservatives- They generally believe that the book of
> proverbs was assembled by King Solomon around 1000BCE. They believe
> that the passages that deal with spanking does reflect his parenting
> beliefs with respect to his son, Rehoboam. They interpret the passages
> literally.
>
> Religious Liberals- They generally believe that Solomon first
> introduced "ancient wisdom" to Israel and it later came a practice to
> attribute all his books to his literary genre he uses in this and other
> books. Thus, Proverbs in its current form cannot date from earlier than
> his reign in the 8ith century BCE. It may have been assembled as late
> as the 4th century BCE. So to sum it off these type do not believe that
> the book of Proverbs is the Word of God.
>
> I will start by addressing the anti Spanking argument, and after will
> address the pro spanking argument.
>
> Anti Spanking Argument
>
> Often the anti spankers view the rod often mention in the book of
> Proverbs (some 9 times) and in the entire Bible (some 61 times) as a
> figure of speech.
-------------------------------
Why do you bother with this linguistic diatribe? None of us care
about dead languages in the biblical sources because we don't
believe in the bible, you nit-wit!! I spent years trying to find
meaning in the Latin, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic from biblical
source material, and I found it finally, at long last, meaningless.

What you don't really understand is that we "liberals" don't view
the entire bible as anything other than a collection of ancient
prose/poetry, and not the "word of god" at all! We don't believe
in any "Gawd" that would be so inconsistent as to have spoken to
vast numbers of people in the nearly pre-historic past but not in
the present. Nor do we believe any "Gawd" to be reasonable or at
all believable which has somehow committed all miraculous acts out
of modern view, a bit too coincidental for our scientific tastes.

We see that inconsistency as evidence that the bible is merely an
attempt by leaders to deceive, control and manipulate the people
using, until now, the relatively recently invented written word
as a phony magical/superstitious vehicle.

When the human species finally has a monstrous past behind it that
is all annotated and recorded for anyone to look up with accuracy,
then such phony mythologizing as religion will be universally seen
as obvious falsehood, and irrelevant and stupid.

The only reason it is still with us is because many among us are
still illiterate of a real proficiency with the written word and
regard writing as a bit beyond their own ability to use to express
themselves. That and they're many of them drunken and ignorant and
haven't a brain at all worth mentioning.
Steve

R. Steve Walz · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1906

Grahame wrote:
>
> Spare the Rod, spoil the child..even though its biblical, its not always
> translated correctly.
> The context of that text as well of an understanding of the writer shows the
> "Rod" was used to guide sheep at that time, it wasnt used to HIT them., A
> shephard cared lovingly for his sheep, even carrying them in his bossom at
> times. The rod was to guide their way. So as a christian myself, I try to
> guide my sheep (children) lovingly as a shephard did his sheep.
> Thats my 2 cents worth anyway..
> Smile

)
> Fiona
-------------------------------
Irrelevant, the old testament is NOT Xtianity anyway, Jesus many
times said that all you need is the Greatest Commendment, and that
he brought the new covenant, and that the old needed to be given
"new meaning".

[]
> Many schools no longer spank, and those that do are often chastised. I
> know that in California (my home state) spanking in the schools has
> been outlawed. In Oregon spanking is not only outlawed in the schools,
> but has been outlawed in the home as well! And consequently the
> children that are not spanked are often more disobedient to their
> parents and authority in general.
---------------------------
More nonsense. This shithead sees independence of mind as a threat.
Steve

Catherine Woodgold · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1506

"Grahame" (gmc1970@optusnet.com.au) writes:
> Spare the Rod, spoil the child..even though its biblical, ...

I don't think it is biblical. I think that particular
quote comes from a poem, not from the Bible.

dragonlady · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2193

In article ,
an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold) wrote:

> "Grahame" (gmc1970@optusnet.com.au) writes:
> > Spare the Rod, spoil the child..even though its biblical, ...
>
> I don't think it is biblical. I think that particular
> quote comes from a poem, not from the Bible.
>

Well, no, it is in the old testement/Hebrew scriptures. I don't much
feel like looking it up right now (and all my books -- including my
bibles -- are still in boxes), but it is, indeed, there.

However, I've heard several explanations that have nothing to do with
hitting. The "rod" in question was a shepherd's rod/crook, which is
used to guide sheep (NOT hit them). So this could have been either
instructions to the parent to guide their children well, or, possibly,
to make sure to hand THEM the rod from time to time to give them work to
do, the implication being that a child who never has to work would get
spoiled.

(Since I'm not a biblical literalist, it wouldn't matter to me if it DID
mean you are supposed to hit your kids: I'd still think hitting them
was wrong. I just like the other explanations of what that particular
verse really means better.)
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Michelle J. Haines · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 266

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>
> If anyone wants to convince me otherwise they'll have
> to mention the specific chapter and verse.

The closest is Proverbs 13:24

He who withholds his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Michelle
Flutist

Michelle J. Haines · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 266

Michelle J. Haines wrote:
> Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>
>>
>> If anyone wants to convince me otherwise they'll have
>> to mention the specific chapter and verse.

Also:

Proverbs 23:13

Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

Michelle
Flutist

Catherine Woodgold · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1506

dragonlady (mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net) writes:
> In article ,
> an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold) wrote:
>
>> "Grahame" (gmc1970@optusnet.com.au) writes:
>> > Spare the Rod, spoil the child..even though its biblical, ...
>>
>> I don't think it is biblical. I think that particular
>> quote comes from a poem, not from the Bible.
>>
>
> Well, no, it is in the old testement/Hebrew scriptures. I don't much
> feel like looking it up right now (and all my books -- including my
> bibles -- are still in boxes), but it is, indeed, there.
>
> However, I've heard several explanations that have nothing to do with
> hitting. The "rod" in question was a shepherd's rod/crook, which is
> used to guide sheep (NOT hit them). So this could have been either
> instructions to the parent to guide their children well, or, possibly,
> to make sure to hand THEM the rod from time to time to give them work to
> do, the implication being that a child who never has to work would get
> spoiled.
>
> (Since I'm not a biblical literalist, it wouldn't matter to me if it DID
> mean you are supposed to hit your kids: I'd still think hitting them
> was wrong. I just like the other explanations of what that particular
> verse really means better.)

I don't think "spare the rod and spoil the child" appears
in the Bible. For example, this web page claims it doesn't:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin8.htm

There are other bible verses mentioning a "rod" but
I think it's a widely-believed myth that that particular
phrase appears in the Bible.

If anyone wants to convince me otherwise they'll have
to mention the specific chapter and verse.

toto · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2581

On 15 Jun 2006 14:22:46 GMT, an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine
Woodgold) wrote:

>"Grahame" (gmc1970@optusnet.com.au) writes:
>> Spare the Rod, spoil the child..even though its biblical, ...
>
>I don't think it is biblical. I think that particular
>quote comes from a poem, not from the Bible.

It doesn't. In fact, it's rather amusing that people think it does
since it is from a rather secular poem and has nothing at all to
do with spanking children.

Here's an explanation and the actual bible quote that come closest:

It is generally assumed that "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is
taken straight from the Bible, somewhere, although one searches for
it there in vain. If "close" counts, the idea is implied in Proverbs
13:24:

He who spares the rod, hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Ironically, the phrase, as frequently quoted, probably comes from a
mock-epic satirical poem written by Samuel Butler between 1663 and
1678-not the Samuel Butler of The Way of All Flesh and Erewhon.
Essentially an anti-Puritan tract, Butler's poem, entitled "Hudibras,"
was patterned after Cervantes's "Don Quixote." The hero, Sir Hudibras,
was a hump-backed, pot-bellied, Presbyterian justice with a long,
untidy carrot-colored beard. On his half-blind old horse, and with
his faithful squire, Ralpho--the English equivalent of Sancho Panza-
Sir Hudibras embarked on a crusade to reform England and enforce the
laws suppressing sports and other idle amusements.

Butler's burlesque poem portrayed the Puritans as obnoxious nuisances
whose hypocrisy and stupidity needed to be exposed. Inadvertently,
however, Butter popularized for us, three hundred years later, an
aphorism taken literally today by more orthodox descendents of his
antipathy.

The tragic scenario and the literary source of this single line comes
not from Proverbs but from a setting which finds Sir Hudibras
imprisoned in stocks. A widow whom he had been wooing visits him and
they discuss at length the possibility of matrimony. She offers to
free him if he would consent to a whipping such as lovers endure for
their ladies, and which serves virtue and corrects the mistakes of
nature. She explains:

And I'll admit you to the place
You claim as due in my good grace.
If matrimony and hangings go
By dest'ny, why not whipping too?
What med'cine else can cure the fits
Of lovers when they lose their wits?
Love is a boy by poets styl'd
Then spare the rod, and spoil the child.

Though the meaning is obscure, it is clear that disciplining children
was not being debated but possible escapades between Sir Hudibras and
his heroine. Such a questionable and un-biblical context hardly
legitimates the use of the phrase as a religious resource, proof-text,
or moral guideline for rearing and disciplining children today.

Katherine

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

toto · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2581

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:32:56 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

>Well, no, it is in the old testement/Hebrew scriptures. I don't much
>feel like looking it up right now (and all my books -- including my
>bibles -- are still in boxes), but it is, indeed, there.

No, though there are a couple of bible verses that talk about the rod
in connection with children, this wording is NOT in the bible.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

dragonlady · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2193

In article ,
an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold) wrote:

> dragonlady (mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net) writes:
> > In article ,
> > an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold) wrote:
> >
> >> "Grahame" (gmc1970@optusnet.com.au) writes:
> >> > Spare the Rod, spoil the child..even though its biblical, ...
> >>
> >> I don't think it is biblical. I think that particular
> >> quote comes from a poem, not from the Bible.
> >>
> >
> > Well, no, it is in the old testement/Hebrew scriptures. I don't much
> > feel like looking it up right now (and all my books -- including my
> > bibles -- are still in boxes), but it is, indeed, there.
> >
> > However, I've heard several explanations that have nothing to do with
> > hitting. The "rod" in question was a shepherd's rod/crook, which is
> > used to guide sheep (NOT hit them). So this could have been either
> > instructions to the parent to guide their children well, or, possibly,
> > to make sure to hand THEM the rod from time to time to give them work to
> > do, the implication being that a child who never has to work would get
> > spoiled.
> >
> > (Since I'm not a biblical literalist, it wouldn't matter to me if it DID
> > mean you are supposed to hit your kids: I'd still think hitting them
> > was wrong. I just like the other explanations of what that particular
> > verse really means better.)
>
> I don't think "spare the rod and spoil the child" appears
> in the Bible. For example, this web page claims it doesn't:
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin8.htm
>
> There are other bible verses mentioning a "rod" but
> I think it's a widely-believed myth that that particular
> phrase appears in the Bible.
>
> If anyone wants to convince me otherwise they'll have
> to mention the specific chapter and verse.

I guess I wasn't looking for the exact phrase "spare the rod and spoil
the child" -- I figure looking for exact phrases in something that is
already not in it's original language is kind of pointless -- but there
are references to "sparing the rod" (indicating it isn't a good thing to
do) with regard to child rearing.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Catherine Woodgold · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1506

"Michelle J. Haines" (mhaines@nanc.com) writes:
> Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>>
>> If anyone wants to convince me otherwise they'll have
>> to mention the specific chapter and verse.
>
> The closest is Proverbs 13:24
>
> He who withholds his rod hates his son,
> But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.
>
> Michelle
> Flutist

This could be interpreted as the shepherd's rod
used to guide, not hit, the sheep.
Diligent disciplining today means using the
information we have available today, such as
the scientific studies showing better behaviour
on average in the long term following nonspanking than spanking.

Many parenting books are available today that were
not available thousands of years ago, with many
effective, nonviolent parenting methods
that parents can learn.

Chookie · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 1444

In article ,
an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold) wrote:

> >> If anyone wants to convince me otherwise they'll have
> >> to mention the specific chapter and verse.
> >
> > The closest is Proverbs 13:24
> >
> > He who withholds his rod hates his son,
> > But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.
>
>
> This could be interpreted as the shepherd's rod
> used to guide, not hit, the sheep.

Not exactly.

The Hebrew word for "rod" here and elsewhere is pretty close to the way we
Aussies use the word "stick" -- it can be a shepherd's crook, a
measuring-stick, a walking-stick -- it's quite a general word. So my minister
tells me, anyway. Any Hebrew scholars on the list to confirm that?

The point of the proverb is that a loving father disciplines his children, or
that parental love includes discipline. Thus, "the rod" is a synecdoche for
discipline (ie the word for a part of something is used to represent the
whole). I take this to mean that corporal punishment is a part of discipline,
but it is not the whole of discipline, as anyone with half a brain knows (*).
It is here *permitted*, but is not, as some Christian child-rearing "experts"
assert, *exalted*. What IS exalted is diligent discipline. Discipline means
"training", roughly, not "punishment", though it does seem to be used as a
euphemism for punishment these days.

(*) Even the most pro-corporal-punishment people see value in rebukes,
corrections, explicit teaching of morals, and the parental example, and most
would see those things as part of discipline.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue